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Combat load??

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AGC

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A handcart or small trailer is not at all a bad idea if you're going to be moving on foot.

The US military has begun fielding carts for evacuating casualties, and hauling ammunition and weapons. There's some info at http://www.combatreform.com/atac.htm that could be useful for do-it-yourselfers. They're not fans of using bike wheels (or other narrow wheels) for such carts, and they do make a good case for wider wheels' advantages in sand and mud, but I think there is also a case to be made for using bike wheels, especially if you're likely to be travelling on pavement or hardpacked trails, and if you're towing with a bike or small motorcycle.
 

Harvester of Sorrow

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the combat load for one of his mach9neguns - apparently a mix of captured maxims, vickers, and Colt 1917s)
Mark, it's been a while since I read that one, but I believe he actually started the war with either the 1895 colt or the marlin-rockwell licensed copy. I seem to recall that he discusses switching to the Vickers later on in the book. Regardless, it's an excellent book. Other than Dolf Goldsmith's books and "Ordnance Went up Front," I wish there were more books from the machine-gunner's perspective.
 

gunplumber

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habving just finished it - it is kindof rambling - I guess I misunderstood. I assumed he was using a colt manufactured browning water-cooled when he said "colt" but IN one of the last chapters he mentioned it was air cooled. He also used the vickers

thats a lot of rounds for an air-cooled.
 

Harvester of Sorrow

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thats a lot of rounds for an air-cooled.
Heh, definitely. Also, it's interesting to read how MG's were sometimes used back then in an indirect fire role. I haven't found that many first-hand accounts of people using the 1895 gun that much, but McBride certainly seemed impressed by it. I guess if you're John Browning, even your first attempts at things work "well enough.":)
 
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Palo

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AGC mentioned handcarts. In the volunteer SAR group I belong to, we use a couple of carts from Cabela's called the 'Super Mag Hauler'. They were about $130.00. They have puncture proof 20" bike tires & can handle up to 500lb.s of gear (or injured / deceased). They also fold up for storage & transport. Very handy and useful.
 

101AASLT

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re:combat load

In Iraq my combat load was 12 loaded 30rd mags, 2x6rd bandoliers of 40mm HE rounds, 2xfrag grenades, combat knife, M-16A4 w/1mag, ACOG and M-203 grenade launcher, Helmet, PVS-14(night vision), IBA w/ 2xSAPI plates and my assualt pack with 2liters water(camelback bladder), 6 more 30rd magazines and 1more bandolier of 40mm rds and 2 smoke grenades and some power bars.
Not a survival load by any means, just what you pack into battle. I didnt always carry the assualt pack, just when we knew it was gonna be hairy. Lord it was all heavy, but after a year you get used to it.
 

olsarg

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Believe basic load was 2 pouchs W/4magazines 20 rds plus 1 magazine in rifle for M14 100 rounds aditional ammo was in bandoleers. Don't have my belt for M1 anymre was it 10 8 round clips or? so long ago You forget . Try 2 sets fatigues 5 pair socks 5 sets under wear 1 pair boots one pair overshoes shelter half poles pegs rope sleeping bag poncho shovel 2 towels 4 wash rags field jacket hat plus TA 21 web gear helmet ect nice basic enfantry load (leg) with m1. used to do 20 mile hikes I hear.
 

gunplumber

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We went through a lot of thought on how to lighten the weapon's squad's combat load, since 3 machineguns with spare barrels and tripods and 1200 rounds per gun weight a lot. and the three man gun crew REQUIRED o do the job right never seemed to happen - we were almost always short one guy./

One of the advantages of a squad is that you can crossload essentials. While an individual will have to have everything in his kit, if he permanently links up with others, they can ditch redundant "community" stuff.

For example, one entrenching tool for every other person. Everyone doesn't need one 'cause one guy is on security while the other is digging. 5 pair of underwear? Yeah, it might be nice to have fresh skivvies every day but wearing the same underwear 2 days in a row ain't gonna kill you. Socks on the other hand, you can never have enough of. Spare uniform? Heck, thats what duct tape is for.

Clothing can in many places be rinsed out at water sources.

One of the things I learned patrolling in the southeast was the mosquitos were vicious for the first dfay, but after a nice coat of sweat and dirt had built up, they didn't bother me as much.

And if an agressor force was on 24 hour rotation (which was typical) you could smell them from a hundred meters down wind because of the perfumy cleaning products.

I also avoided an ambush during MOuntain ranger camp becasue I smelled Copenhagen chewing tobacco.

anyway, I ramble - the point is that there are many ittems of which one person need s to carry one, but two people still only need to carry one.
 

B Wood

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Interesting bit of info to share

spend a lot of time with the troops. anyone care to guess what one of the highest weight items is with current combat loads?

If you guessed Nylon you would be right.

A number of the units are looking for lighter weight nylons for vests, cases, harnesses, etc. They are looking at other synthetics as well. Vest designs are not holding up no matter WHO makes them. All nylon equipment fails. Period. The only issue is how quickly the equipment will fail. Some manufacturers such as Blackhawk have a much higher failure rate than Eagle, High Speed Gear, etc. That performance comes with a weight price tag typically. High Speed Gear is bullet proof...but weighs a ton. Blackhawk is lighter, but seams rip out often.

Tac vests, etc are going to a shell design...i.e..replaceable pockets / panels, form the outer shell that can be abraded, cut, etc...and easily replaced. The inner core would remain.

If you want a real eye opener....weigh all your nylon gear......or for that matter weigh all your gear period.
 

gunplumber

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An interesting book was publiched by the USMC press. By SLA MArshall.

Came with two thesis combined. oone ewas a "a soldier's load" and the other "the mobility of a nation."

Now SLA marshall is a fraud and invented much of his data for his men and fire thesis, but its still worth reading.

The other is called "Jungle SNAFUs" about a guy who was with the first jungle unit deployed in world war II. He intensely analizes the weight/durability factor and equipment design and failure.
 

MTS

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How about using the shoulder bag like the Soviet bloc magazine bag, offset by a similar gas mask bag or something on the other side?

I've got a 4 cell magazine bag like this w/ 3 AK mags (30's) and the other cell with cleaning gear, knife, food, etc.

I put this together with the idea of "what if" I had to hit the door w/o warning.

No real knowledge or experience here, but I thought I'd throw this out for feedback.
 

MTS

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I was reminded of the possibles bag when I rigged a gas mask bag for hunting. The com-bloc mag carrier seems like the best way to cart the ammo short of web gear.

These kind of evolved into "load out" for me.
 

kfranz

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Sayeret Tzanhanim said:
MTS,
Mountain men used to call those a "Possibles Bag". Gunpower, balls, flint, tinder, and a few other essential items for possible situations.
Good practice to have one in the truck. Maxpedition makes good shoulder bags.
I'll second the Maxpedition stuff. I've got a fatboy, and while its primary purpose is to haul diapers, water, and beef jerky to help keep the kids content when we are travelling, if needed, it would hold mags of all varieties.
 

Rawles

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Decades ago, I set myself up with tactical web gear that was dedicated to M1As. The only significant change in recent years was that I "migrated" to L1A1s. (Which is a long story in itself.)

I have three basic load increments set aside *for each family member* in my "Get Out of Dodge" (G.O.O.D.) packs and duffles, just in case our retreat is over-run. (The dreaded worst case scenario).

These three incremental loads equate to the old U.S. army doctrine of "fighting load", "sustainment load", and "subsistence load." I've built four complete sets, for the members of my immediate family. (BTW, I'll probably be piecing together a fifth set, once my #3 Son turns 12 years old.)

Here is how they add up, incrementally:

The fighting load has just the basic set of web gear. Total weight with rifle, loaded magazines, and full canteens is 21 to 36 pounds, depending on the individual for whom the web gear was tailored. For ease of storage and "grab it and go" convenience, each set of web gear is packed in an oversize earth-tone nylon sleeping bag stuff sack.

The sustaining load adds a CFP-90 or ALICE pack, which includes tentage.

The subsistence load adds TWO extra NRS Whitewater rafting "Portage Pack" dry bags, per person. These hold extra rations, cooking gear, extra batteries, extra bandoleers, and so forth. BTW, one of these two duffles is a designated "cold weather" duffle. Total weight, including an L1A1 and ammo ranges between 145 to 210 pounds! Needless to say, the entire sustainment load is not designed to be carried all at once, but since it is stored in waterproof portage packs (with comfortable shoulder straps and proper padded belly bands) it is at least easily transportable. This would require three "ferrying" trips to a bivouac site.

- - - -

As some useful background, the following is posted at the Army Natick Labs web site:

Standards developed for the Army field manual titled “Foot Marches” printed in 1990 list maximum weights troops should carry for a fighting load, approach march load and emergency march load, figures determined with help from research at the Natick Soldier Center and U.S. Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine.

A fighting load is everything worn or carried except a rucksack and should be held to less than 48 pounds, according to the field manual. The next level, approach march load, adds a light rucksack and should not exceed 72 pounds. In the worst-case scenario, emergency approach march loads require a larger rucksack, raising the total weight to 120-150 pounds.

Past research has provided more insight into combat loads. A British study from the 1920s concluded that the fighting load should not exceed 40-45 pounds, and S.L.A. Marshall, author of the 1950 book “The Soldier Load and the Mobility of a Nation,” advised that the combat load should remain less than about 40 pounds.

Viewed another way, the load should not exceed 30 percent of a person’s body weight when carrying an approach march load. Dean’s team weighed and photographed troops at every level, from wearing only their basic uniforms and boots to what they carried for their emergency approach march loads for 29 different positions in rifle companies.
 

gunplumber

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Rawles said:
I have three basic load increments set aside *for each family member* in my "Get Out of Dodge" (G.O.O.D.) packs and duffles, just in case our retreat is over-run. (The dreaded worst case scenario).

These three incremental loads equate to the old U.S. army doctrine of "fighting load", "sustainment load", and "subsistence load." I've built four complete sets, for the members of my immediate family. (BTW, I'll probably be piecing together a fifth set, once my #3 Son turns 12 years old.)
This is similar to our setup when I was serving as an Army Ranger (Back when it was hard).

Personal fighting load was weapon, ammo, canteens, compass, aid pouch, strobe, knife, etc. Everything on combat harness and butpack. This never left your body.

Then the rucksack with Mission essential equipment, sleep gear, more water, e-tool, food, sandbags (empty) blah blah blah. The ruck would be left in the Objective rally point before assaulting an objective. It could also be dumped and/or cashed if doing an E&E.

Then was the "D" bag, which was "deployment" and had extra clothes, MOPP gear, etc. IT fit in a duffle bag and was tagged and locked and under your bunk. Then the "C" bag which was for "cold weather" and had mickey mouse boots, gortex extreme cold weather gear and polypro "bear suit". artic overwhites, etc. It also was tagged and locked and under the bunk.

Should the unit be activated, and while on "stanby" we were on 3 hour recall and 18 hours from alert to wheels up. - you'd take your personal gear and ruck, and the supply guys could ship your duffle bag to your area of operation afterwards.

Prioritizing as Mr. Rawles has pointed out, - your carry gear, your nice to have but too heavy to carry gear, and your "long term stay" gear. Each already tagged and bagged.
 
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fusalautoleger

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back just befor the (ban)i got a rather large cheak .. so i had some extra cash too spend in a very good gun store they had evry thing spent money on things i did need the sar 48 was not one and the colt govt ar 15 was was not one .. bought 22 rifles that year.. my get home weapon was a mdle b uzi in 45 kept in my office i had a key board tray that slide under the desk.. thats where uzi was kept.. 12g 8 shot ithaca in the car or van.. but got tired of having somany guns with their differnt ammos to buy spare parts bla bla bla.. so i got rid of the stuff that was not nato broke down what i needed and what i could feed.... i liked my uzi because i could swicth between 9s and 45skept that kept my fal .. shotgun ruger 10/22got everything down too common ammo that i could find anywhere.. got rid of all the hard to come by stuff.. who is gonna invade us with 7.62sov the big guys that could dont use it anymore..so went the ak s and skses.. m1garand gone not a collectiable as went m1 carbine ..spend the mony and buy 5 or 6 98ks rechambered for 308 .. got a few enfields in 308 too .. stashed them in places i could get too with 75 rounds each ..by going this way i made the main ammo i that would have buy common to my rifles..by doing this it freed me up to buy the max for every thing ..spare parts ,mags barrels..pins ,springs more ammo more ammo .. now the guns that are stashed only long enough too get too the next stash..stash guns are the spare parts them selves
 

goldenspurholderx2

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I read a quote somewhere on the net and I don't know the exact words but it goes something like: "live with what's in your pack, fight with what's on your belt(to me meaning your molle vest), and survive with what's in your pockets".

To answer the origional spirit of the thread, when I am given the choice of what to carry for a couple of hours dismounted patrol being close to armor support the items that I carry that ONLY pertain to my rifle, not everything else I'm carrying include: 7x full mags, an otis cleaning kit, exrta batteries for my M68(aimpoint), a muzzle cap or two peices of 100mph tape criss crossed over my muzzle and a good three point sling of my own making. If I had a choice the mags would be in a chest harness and if I was carrying a FAL(which I wish I was) I would only carry 5x20rnd mags four in the harness and one in the rifle. I have seen first hand the difference in effects between what gov't issue 5.56 and 7.62 will do to someone and I believe when only hits count you will need less 7.62 than 5.56. Just my 2cents from my experiences.:wink:
 

firefuzz

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I haven't looked at this thread since it was less that one page long and after spending the last 2 hours reading it I've learned several new tips on gear, been reminded of things I'd forgotten, and am in the process of revamping some of my plans and tactics. I've saved this thread to my favorites to be able to go back and review in the future.

Firstly, to all you 'old fool' soldiers and Marines that have participated in this thread up to the present, especially Mark, I applaud your self-restraint in dealing with certain parties and keeping this thread out of the basement.:bow:
I wouldn't have been as patient as you were.

As far as 'old school' training and methods, if we were reduced to being just a man and our weapon of choice, without all the techno crap that relies on batteries and satellites, I seriously doubt that many, if any, of us would survive a one on one encounter in the woods with one of the original Rogers Rangers or the Green Mountain Boys. It's not all the gear that gets the job done, it's the person using the gear that counts. A single shot muzle loader will still kill today, just as will a Garand or .30-30 lever action, not my weapons of choice, but I still respect their capability in the hands of a person skilled in their use.

The hand cart and zip-tie reinforced mag pulls are ideas I will incorperate into my gear/plans. As are the dispersing of non-essential firearms and ammo kits to the neighbors. They're good people and I won't be where I live now in a SHTF situation.

The heavy hitters, the FALs and their components are going to the retreat, my Dad's place in country, about 10 miles by road. This is where the majority of my gear already is.

My 'get to the base camp' weapon will be an 870 riot gun, backed by a Glock 17. The wife will carry an M4 with an identical side arm. It the situation warrents, we can trade long guns. My basic load of ammo will be 80/buck and 20/slugs plus 3 mags for the pistol. Hers will be a 108 rds of .223 loaded in 4/30rd mags.

Lots of good info in this thread.

Rob
 

gunplumber

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goldenspurholderx2 said:
Rob and especially Mark, just read the first couple of threads in the post and skipped around due to time limits on the net. Thought I was answering the origional spirit of the post other than that no excuses, sorry, will pull head out of fifth point of contact.
I don't know what you are apologising for. Your post was spot on topic in my opinion.

You open a whole category of "combat load" - that of the motorized infantry that has a big "horse" carrying most of the gear and dismounts for patrolling (till they run out of gas . . . .. . ).
 

MTS

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Before this thread dies, I need to ask a question about my LBE set-up from some who have used this stuff.

Right now, my mag pouches are in the usual spot, on the belt and connected to the suspenders.

These are AK pouches for three 30 round mags and are pretty big and bulky. What I'm thinking about is finding an alternate place to put these, back, sides, etc. I do have the butt pack and canteen holder in place, so I'm kind of limited.

Any ideas? Experience?
 

Artful

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How about on your pack? are you using Molle? or just GI belt w/ suspenders?

Other thoughts would be like I see with some of the 3 gun crowd with drop leg mag pouches, Or see about a vest with movable gear and keep the belt for smaller stuff.

Got a picture of what you are wearing when loaded up?
 

rgkeller

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Came on this site to learn something about the FAL and came upon this thread. My experience goes back several decades into the LBE and ALICE ruck era. No vests back in those ancient times.

I do remember vividly trying to disappear into the ground when incoming showed up unexpectedly. My units SOP for a patrol load out had nothing on the chest or the front of the hips - except a small pouch holding the large bandage everyone carried.

It would seem to me that the bulky magazine and other pouches carried on the chest would make it difficult to get into a really really deep prone position at the times when such a position would be very helpful to maintaining one's combat capability.

Or am I missing something and should chuck the old belt and suspenders set up from back in the day?
 

firefuzz

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I used the old style 'H' suspenders and pistol belt when I was in the Army. I tried a vest and couldn't ever get used to it, too many miles with the other.

I'd say stay with what you are used to and know works for you.

New does not neccessarily mean better.

Rob
 
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